WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
my "ethical" decisions aren't only based on a system that isn't changing anytime soon. I don't want him on our soil. I don't want him being "taken care of" like he would be in prison. he deserved death and it's at least a partial dent in al queda. once again, stop trying to put words in my mouth.
If your ethical stances on this issue is not only based on our current broken prison system, then what is the other areas of this topic that you form your basis from?
You did state that you "don't want him taken care of like he would be in prison", however that statement is still apart of the broken prison system.
omfg that statement I'm making isn't based on what you won't shut the fuck up about. THE WAY THE PRISON SYSTEM IS WE WOULD BE PAYING FOR HIM TO BE HOUSED HERE SO I DON'T APPROVE OF THAT. how hard is that to really understand? talking about "oh well it's fucked up and it needs to be fixed so that makes it ok" does not apply at all to what I'm saying. even if we didn't have our tax dollars going into I STILL wouldn't want him being kept anywhere near the US and would want him dead, but the fact that our taz dollars DO go into the system that would make it even worse to know that MY MONEY is going towards taking care of a fucking terrorist.
and I've already stated about a million other times: -he's not an american citizen, he does not have the same rights nor does he deserve them. -he's a terrorist. -he killed thousands on our own soil. -he still made attempts and was making more plans for more attacks. -him being dead puts a small dent in al queda.
obviously you don't have shit for reading comprehension. and yes you're making me mad because I'm continually having to repeat myself and you still don't fucking get it.
The problem dayna with your argument is that you are contradicting yourself. You stated that it wasn't only the financial problems of the prison system that was causing you to make your ethical standpoints, however you weren't starting what the other areas for your basis was. This message I am responding to you did though. And I can respect you having that opinion, however my opinion differs from yours in the following ways.
"-he's not an american citizen, he does not have the same rights nor does he deserve them."
My opinion is that everyone in the world are equals and your geographical birthplace does not afford you extra rights to life, liberty, and property. You are not better then someone else because of some arbitrary line drawn in the sand.
"-he's a terrorist."
The word terrorist is vague and often a word used by one side to condemn the actions of another side in war. Our very founding fathers would have been labeled terrorist by the British had that term been around in the 1700's. I am not justifying his actions, but only saying that I do not like this word, and believe everyone (no matter how monterous) is still entailed a right of unbaised trial of their peers.
"-he killed thousands on our own soil."
And I am not advocating that he should not have stood trial for his crimes against humanity. If one takes anothers life, liberty, or property, then that person should answer for that action in a trial of his peers.
"-he still made attempts and was making more plans for more attacks."
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
what dayna is saying i think is that he doesnt hold himself to the american standards. i disagree with wake that everyone deserves life libert and the pursuit of happiness. i believe only people who deserve those things should get it, not every single person. fuck the person killing everyone, he is clearly not following our little moral lifestyle so fuck him, in what ways does he doserve the right to be happy im curious??
What Dayna and others are claiming though is that his rights to life, liberty, and property are only based on some arbitrary line.
And you are actually misquoting me. I think everyone is entitled to an equal right to life, liberty, and property regardless of race, gender, or nationality. However if a person does take away anothers EQUAL right to life, liberty, and property, then that person in turn is defaulting his own right to life, liberty, and property. The consequence of his actions needs to be determined by a jury of his peers. That is all I was saying.... OBL at birth should have been given an equal right to life, liberty, and property to anyone else on earth. Through his own free will he violated others right to life, liberty, and property, so he in turn should have been held accountable for those actions.
I don't think his death is at all a bad thing. I only was saying that it would have been preferable had he been taken alive and held accountable for his actions. I am sure if he could speak from beyond the grave he would probably say "praise allah that I didn't have to answer to the global society for my actions. quick and easy death. I will be regarded as a martyr. praise allah"
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
I stated all my other shit long before all this shit in the thread. didn't think I needed to repeat myself just because I was talking about another reason I don't want his ass alive. so no. I'm not contradicting myself at all.
this is a 26 page thread that has spanned a significant amount of time. When the conversation restarts up today, it is sometimes necessary for the sake of discussion to repeat stuff you might have said two weeks ago. Especially when the person you are having the conversation with asks for clarification.
Nothing I have said today was meant to piss you off. Nothing I said was said in a personal nature. I can sympathize with your getting frustrated with having to repeat yourself, however I do hope you realize that nothing said done so in a personal nature.
what dayna is saying i think is that he doesnt hold himself to the american standards. i disagree with wake that everyone deserves life libert and the pursuit of happiness. i believe only people who deserve those things should get it, not every single person. fuck the person killing everyone, he is clearly not following our little moral lifestyle so fuck him, in what ways does he doserve the right to be happy im curious??
What Dayna and others are claiming though is that his rights to life, liberty, and property are only based on some arbitrary line.
And you are actually misquoting me. I think everyone is entitled to an equal right to life, liberty, and property regardless of race, gender, or nationality. However if a person does take away anothers EQUAL right to life, liberty, and property, then that person in turn is defaulting his own right to life, liberty, and property. The consequence of his actions needs to be determined by a jury of his peers. That is all I was saying.... OBL at birth should have been given an equal right to life, liberty, and property to anyone else on earth. Through his own free will he violated others right to life, liberty, and property, so he in turn should have been held accountable for those actions.
I don't think his death is at all a bad thing. I only was saying that it would have been preferable had he been taken alive and held accountable for his actions. I am sure if he could speak from beyond the grave he would probably say "praise allah that I didn't have to answer to the global society for my actions. quick and easy death. I will be regarded as a martyr. praise allah"
i understand what your saying but two things apply to me. One is that where does a fair trial into the life, liberty and property??? it seems to me that a fair trial would be titled under justice so in that case everyone is entitled to Life liberty Justice and property. And thats a terrific philisophical idea but honestly id say about 10 percent of the world actually live by that code so when you say that "why is america so special" i could ask you the same question...why is america so special that we would put OUR moral code and way of doing things when it is not widely accepted around the world. Now you could bring up international law and that code system which is fair but the truth is most of the world does not live by that code, so I still feel that a trail is not necessary. If we are simply talking about a hypothetical black and white world it would get us no where in conversation. you have to be a little practical, your not going to find a jury of osamas peers, most people would still think he would guilty before the trial started proving it impossible to give him a fair trial. so once again i think this whole convo is kinda pointless
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
i understand what your saying but two things apply to me. One is that where does a fair trial into the life, liberty and property??? it seems to me that a fair trial would be titled under justice so in that case everyone is entitled to Life liberty Justice and property. And thats a terrific philisophical idea but honestly id say about 10 percent of the world actually live by that code so when you say that "why is america so special" i could ask you the same question...why is america so special that we would put OUR moral code and way of doing things when it is not widely accepted around the world. Now you could bring up international law and that code system which is fair but the truth is most of the world does not live by that code, so I still feel that a trail is not necessary. If we are simply talking about a hypothetical black and white world it would get us no where in conversation. you have to be a little practical, your not going to find a jury of osamas peers, most people would still think he would guilty before the trial started proving it impossible to give him a fair trial. so once again i think this whole convo is kinda pointless
actually the reason why justice is not included with life, liberty, and property is because those three things everyone should have an equal opportunity at. It is possible to live your entire life without someone infringing on those rights, so you very well might never need justice.
I don't think americia is special. But this concept is universal and is ethically and philosophically a fair concept for all involved.
I want to show you a video.... you have to watch nola. its sweet! \m/
once again wake your speaking specifically hypothetical. if you took all the americans in this world and asked them if there rights were EVER infringed upon in any way i believe that number would be around the 97 percent range...
and whether it is philosophically fair or not, the world cant always run on the philosophically fair. life isnt fair
i watched your video and it all sounds nice, it really does but it doesnt say how to react to someone who is flying airplanes into 1000 of innocent people...the video stated MUTUAL respect for one another and i dont see any of that coming from people who risk there lives and the lives of others to murder people.s o sometimes we have to step out of the black and white world and kick some ass in the grey world
based on that philosophy i would be able to go into public and spark up a joint, since it my choice with my life and im not infringing on anyone else. i would however be arrested so I cannot do this. the rest of the world kinda has to go along with this philosophy in order for it to work
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
based on that philosophy i would be able to go into public and spark up a joint, since it my choice with my life and im not infringing on anyone else. i would however be arrested so I cannot do this. the rest of the world kinda has to go along with this philosophy in order for it to work
\m/
I didn't post the video to show how things are, but how I think they should be. It is how I personally believe the world should function. I agree with your joint example and will up your statement with "you should be allowed to shoot up smack on the street and work out a prostitution exchange if you both agree to the terms". I believe that no government has the right to tell you how to live your life as long as you dont infringe on anothers right to life, liberty, and property. want to shoot up? no problem. want to shoot up and then drive while high and plow into a crowd? yeah... Now the gov needs to be involved because you just took away others lives. and those people need justice for your crimes against other humans. It is pretty simple.
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
edited May 2011
i watched your video and it all sounds nice, it really does but it doesnt say how to react to someone who is flying airplanes into 1000 of innocent people...the video stated MUTUAL respect for one another and i dont see any of that coming from people who risk there lives and the lives of others to murder people.s o sometimes we have to step out of the black and white world and kick some ass in the grey world
the video did address that. OBL committed murder. he didnt treat people with mutual respect. that was wrong so justice needs to be served. Were kinda starting to rehash shit that we already worked out. I'm glad OBL is dead. It would have been better had he answered for his crimes in a global court. Really I only posted that video so you could see how I view the world. I know things arent as black and white as that video, but in general I try to stay true to the principles presented there. I only posted so you might get a better idea where I was coming from.
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
striving for ideal is useless when it will never happen.
No. That is like saying trying to get a 4.0 in college is stupid because it probably wont happen. You must ALWAYS attempt for the ideal, and then you can be happy with falling short a little. Just because you may never get to perfection, is not a reason to get as perfect as you can.
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
I'm not ignorant that it will never be perfect, but that doesnt mean you can't work for perfection. It is better then throwing up your arms saying "fuck it all. nothing we can do"
drinkwine732Posts: 20,418destroyer of motherfuckers
To be human is to strive for ideals. It's what separates good from bad. The good strive for positive ideals. Charity, honesty, health, success, etc. That's not only limited to individuals but to society as well.
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
Inb4ethicalegoism
:-))
no, defiantly not going there considering the problems we had discussing the financial problems of the prison system. If it was just you, and illuminatus917, then I'm sure we would go there..... but not with this crowd and this apparently sensitive issue :-))
Comments
"-he's not an american citizen, he does not have the same rights nor does he deserve them."
My opinion is that everyone in the world are equals and your geographical birthplace does not afford you extra rights to life, liberty, and property. You are not better then someone else because of some arbitrary line drawn in the sand.
"-he's a terrorist."
The word terrorist is vague and often a word used by one side to condemn the actions of another side in war. Our very founding fathers would have been labeled terrorist by the British had that term been around in the 1700's. I am not justifying his actions, but only saying that I do not like this word, and believe everyone (no matter how monterous) is still entailed a right of unbaised trial of their peers.
"-he killed thousands on our own soil."
And I am not advocating that he should not have stood trial for his crimes against humanity. If one takes anothers life, liberty, or property, then that person should answer for that action in a trial of his peers.
"-he still made attempts and was making more plans for more attacks."
Speculation. your other points are better
"-him being dead puts a small dent in al queda."
Speculation. maybe. your other points are better
And you are actually misquoting me. I think everyone is entitled to an equal right to life, liberty, and property regardless of race, gender, or nationality. However if a person does take away anothers EQUAL right to life, liberty, and property, then that person in turn is defaulting his own right to life, liberty, and property. The consequence of his actions needs to be determined by a jury of his peers. That is all I was saying.... OBL at birth should have been given an equal right to life, liberty, and property to anyone else on earth. Through his own free will he violated others right to life, liberty, and property, so he in turn should have been held accountable for those actions.
I don't think his death is at all a bad thing. I only was saying that it would have been preferable had he been taken alive and held accountable for his actions. I am sure if he could speak from beyond the grave he would probably say "praise allah that I didn't have to answer to the global society for my actions. quick and easy death. I will be regarded as a martyr. praise allah"
Nothing I have said today was meant to piss you off. Nothing I said was said in a personal nature. I can sympathize with your getting frustrated with having to repeat yourself, however I do hope you realize that nothing said done so in a personal nature.
I don't think americia is special. But this concept is universal and is ethically and philosophically a fair concept for all involved.
I want to show you a video.... you have to watch nola. its sweet! \m/
http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf
and whether it is philosophically fair or not, the world cant always run on the philosophically fair. life isnt fair
I didn't post the video to show how things are, but how I think they should be. It is how I personally believe the world should function. I agree with your joint example and will up your statement with "you should be allowed to shoot up smack on the street and work out a prostitution exchange if you both agree to the terms". I believe that no government has the right to tell you how to live your life as long as you dont infringe on anothers right to life, liberty, and property. want to shoot up? no problem. want to shoot up and then drive while high and plow into a crowd? yeah... Now the gov needs to be involved because you just took away others lives. and those people need justice for your crimes against other humans. It is pretty simple.
Inb4ethicalegoism
no, defiantly not going there considering the problems we had discussing the financial problems of the prison system. If it was just you, and illuminatus917, then I'm sure we would go there..... but not with this crowd and this apparently sensitive issue :-))