I am in no way, shape nor form condoning someone charging (if that was indeed the case) a band member. I do think at that point, you are at your own risk and if a band member injures you, it's your own damn fault. You should know better as an attendee of a show. The band are entitled to self defense in the event security fails. In the heat of the moment, I'm sure most people aren't going to consider what is the most mellow way to handle to this to ensure this fan doesn't get annihilated in the end.
Now, for me, the "Dime rule" as I will call it here should not be applied. It carries a discriminatory approach to it. Why are we allowing one bad apple to ruin the rest? That event happened how long ago? We have come a long way since then to ensure band and crowd safety. Sure, we don't know the intentions of the fan at the center of this investigation. I've been to enough shows (D.I.Y and bigger shows) where I've seen fans attempt to approach (charge) a singer/band member to just sneak a quick high five, hug, grab the mic to sing.. in essence all things that weren't going to harm a band member. We could argue either way, but in the end.. we DON'T know. Yes, it is wise to be cautious and aware of whats going on around you, especially while performing but with the "Dime rule", we are assuming the worst is going to happen. One isolated incident years ago shouldn't equate to "If A then B" (In this case A is a fan getting on stage and B is therefore he's going to Dimebag my ass). For me, as aforementioned, it's discriminatory against the fans to carry this mentality. All fans that get on stage aren't going to do harm. Just like all people who look Middle Eastern on my next flight who stand up and walk around during the flight aren't about to recreate 9/11 (If I take the negative "If A then B" approach, then I should be crying for flight security to subdue them because they happen to get up too much and make me uncomfortable and one past event years ago means its gonna happen again). Much like how the next guy from the Military who likes metal at a show and gets a little too rowdy isn't going to pull out a gun and kill people.
Again, I am not condoning what this fan reportedly did. I just don't think the "Randy is innocent because this guy could have been Nathan Gale part 2!" is a valid justification. We should be past that by now.
Excellent! Someone to discuss this with!
I am in no way, shape nor form condoning someone charging (if that was indeed the case) a band member. I do think at that point, you are at your own risk and if a band member injures you, it's your own damn fault. You should know better as an attendee of a show. The band are entitled to self defense in the event security fails. In the heat of the moment, I'm sure most people aren't going to consider what is the most mellow way to handle to this to ensure this fan doesn't get annihilated in the end.
Now, for me, the "Dime rule" as I will call it here should not be applied. It carries a discriminatory approach to it. Why are we allowing one bad apple to ruin the rest? That event happened how long ago? We have come a long way since then to ensure band and crowd safety. Sure, we don't know the intentions of the fan at the center of this investigation. I've been to enough shows (D.I.Y and bigger shows) where I've seen fans attempt to approach (charge) a singer/band member to just sneak a quick high five, hug, grab the mic to sing.. in essence all things that weren't going to harm a band member. We could argue either way, but in the end.. we DON'T know. Yes, it is wise to be cautious and aware of whats going on around you, especially while performing but with the "Dime rule", we are assuming the worst is going to happen. One isolated incident years ago shouldn't equate to "If A then B" (In this case A is a fan getting on stage and B is therefore he's going to Dimebag my ass). For me, as aforementioned, it's discriminatory against the fans to carry this mentality. All fans that get on stage aren't going to do harm. Just like all people who look Middle Eastern on my next flight who stand up and walk around during the flight aren't about to recreate 9/11 (If I take the negative "If A then B" approach, then I should be crying for flight security to subdue them because they happen to get up too much and make me uncomfortable and one past event years ago means its gonna happen again). Much like how the next guy from the Military who likes metal at a show and gets a little too rowdy isn't going to pull out a gun and kill people.
Again, I am not condoning what this fan reportedly did. I just don't think the "Randy is innocent because this guy could have been Nathan Gale part 2!" is a valid justification. We should be past that by now.
Yeah the whole "this coulda been nathan gale jr" argument is iffy with me too.
I am in no way, shape nor form condoning someone charging (if that was indeed the case) a band member. I do think at that point, you are at your own risk and if a band member injures you, it's your own damn fault. You should know better as an attendee of a show. The band are entitled to self defense in the event security fails. In the heat of the moment, I'm sure most people aren't going to consider what is the most mellow way to handle to this to ensure this fan doesn't get annihilated in the end.
Now, for me, the "Dime rule" as I will call it here should not be applied. It carries a discriminatory approach to it. Why are we allowing one bad apple to ruin the rest? That event happened how long ago? We have come a long way since then to ensure band and crowd safety. Sure, we don't know the intentions of the fan at the center of this investigation. I've been to enough shows (D.I.Y and bigger shows) where I've seen fans attempt to approach (charge) a singer/band member to just sneak a quick high five, hug, grab the mic to sing.. in essence all things that weren't going to harm a band member. We could argue either way, but in the end.. we DON'T know. Yes, it is wise to be cautious and aware of whats going on around you, especially while performing but with the "Dime rule", we are assuming the worst is going to happen. One isolated incident years ago shouldn't equate to "If A then B" (In this case A is a fan getting on stage and B is therefore he's going to Dimebag my ass). For me, as aforementioned, it's discriminatory against the fans to carry this mentality. All fans that get on stage aren't going to do harm. Just like all people who look Middle Eastern on my next flight who stand up and walk around during the flight aren't about to recreate 9/11 (If I take the negative "If A then B" approach, then I should be crying for flight security to subdue them because they happen to get up too much and make me uncomfortable and one past event years ago means its gonna happen again). Much like how the next guy from the Military who likes metal at a show and gets a little too rowdy isn't going to pull out a gun and kill people.
Again, I am not condoning what this fan reportedly did. I just don't think the "Randy is innocent because this guy could have been Nathan Gale part 2!" is a valid justification. We should be past that by now.
Some great points made. I do feel however, that much like 9/11 had a lasting effect and changed the world we live in, its kinda the same with "the Dime rule" shit changed after that. Of course not every person who rushes the stage is gonna pull out a gun and start shooting, but there is no way of knowing what there intentions are. People got the fuck beat out of them for that shit long before Dime, but after that happened it just changes the way people think in those situations. The fact that those events are even possible is something people realize now. I'm curious what liabilities the venue has or if they are off the hook? Is it trespassing to be somewhere unauthorized during a show?
yes, lets shoot from the crowd when everyone is moving and jumping that should make me hit my target, which is also moving -_-
i swear, you people 8-|
You've obviosuly never shot a gun...... It's not that hard to hit a target from ten feet away, even if other people are jostling you.
Ever tried to take a pic from the third row? And that's just with a camera. Who knows how many people would grab you if they saw a gun. Your chances would be iffy at best.
Some great points made. I do feel however, that much like 9/11 had a lasting effect and changed the world we live in, its kinda the same with "the Dime rule" shit changed after that. Of course not every person who rushes the stage is gonna pull out a gun and start shooting, but there is no way of knowing what there intentions are. People got the fuck beat out of them for that shit long before Dime, but after that happened it just changes the way people think in those situations. The fact that those events are even possible is something people realize now. I'm curious what liabilities the venue has or if they are off the hook? Is it trespassing to be somewhere unauthorized during a show?
I appreciate you and all the others who at least consider and see my end for a moment. I agree 100% that it takes a catastrophic even such as 9/11 or the Dimebag incident to realize it IS CAPABLE and possible to happen. People should be more aware that anything should be expected, but at the same time, not discriminate based on an isolated incident. Just because Gale got on stage and took someones life does not correlate to every person who gets on stage is an armed assailant ready to take life at whatever cost.
I've been considering the last day what liability the venue has. It is their job to ensure nobody gets on stage. Judging by the reports and basic assumption, the venue had a policy against getting on stage (crowd surfing being the means to get there). I'm sure LOG and ALL other bands are instructed by contract to react a certain way when someone gets on stage, much like in the MLB or most sports when you see a fan get on the field, they stand there and allow proper security to take care of the matter. The harsh reality here is that, even by pushing a fan off stage or whatever happened, Randy is liable here. He is not 100% innocent and off the hook, no matter how much you want to see his side.
I do have curiosity in why this matter was handled this way. Why did it take so long for this to come to light? I understand the mentality that why tell the band Randy was wanted because they could avoid that area in general. I do not think the family would be for covering up something to arrest Randy and would want justice of any sort immediately. When the person at the center of this investigation died, you would think that this would have caused waves throughout the music world. If Randy did more than shove a fan off stage, one would think in this age we would have documented evidence of it, not only on reviews and blogs, but video as well, even if it was 2 years ago.
I am not fully confident I know the laws of the Czech Republic, but I thought we had an extradition law/agreement with them that could have prevent this from unfolding the way it has. If this was a serious a matter as it was, one would think this event would have went down awhile ago.
One would assure that the tickets had the same mumbo jumbo on the back claiming no responsiblities in case of injury so the venue themselves are probably protected. I'm curious as to what rights are granted to security teams and what laws if any they are protected from in the course of doing their job. For instance, its assault if you randomly grab or tackle a person, yet these are all part of their job. You push a guy and he dies, its your fault. But if you push him as a security guard doing your job, where does the liabilty fall then? (assuming Randy can be his own security) I also wonder if it won't turn out like some driving laws where if you don't have a license and someone smashed into you, you can still be at fault because you should have been driving a car in the first place. Seems to me that Randy is at fault because he assaulted the guy, but if the guy is trespassing I'm not sure what his liability would be (stand your ground laws etc) There are some interesting legal issues here, but "Dime got shot" is certainly not a legal defense but it may help to show that Randy BELIEVED he was in danger at the time and simply defending himself.
It's not uncommon for an insane amount of time to pass before arrests are made or charges filed, even for small cases. Once I waited almost 18 months to go to court for some plants, another possesion charge I had dragged on for over 2 years... for less than 5 grams. The courts are many things, but speedy is not one of them.
It's because I don't care to get involved in most of the arguments here. As I mentioned the other day, I'm all for Jobe's shit ping pong reference. I prefer to watch from the outside.
This subject interests me enough to get involved. On the other hand, I could care less if Erik really bangs girls or sucks dick.
Comments
<_>
I've been considering the last day what liability the venue has. It is their job to ensure nobody gets on stage. Judging by the reports and basic assumption, the venue had a policy against getting on stage (crowd surfing being the means to get there). I'm sure LOG and ALL other bands are instructed by contract to react a certain way when someone gets on stage, much like in the MLB or most sports when you see a fan get on the field, they stand there and allow proper security to take care of the matter. The harsh reality here is that, even by pushing a fan off stage or whatever happened, Randy is liable here. He is not 100% innocent and off the hook, no matter how much you want to see his side.
I do have curiosity in why this matter was handled this way. Why did it take so long for this to come to light? I understand the mentality that why tell the band Randy was wanted because they could avoid that area in general. I do not think the family would be for covering up something to arrest Randy and would want justice of any sort immediately. When the person at the center of this investigation died, you would think that this would have caused waves throughout the music world. If Randy did more than shove a fan off stage, one would think in this age we would have documented evidence of it, not only on reviews and blogs, but video as well, even if it was 2 years ago.
I am not fully confident I know the laws of the Czech Republic, but I thought we had an extradition law/agreement with them that could have prevent this from unfolding the way it has. If this was a serious a matter as it was, one would think this event would have went down awhile ago.
It's not uncommon for an insane amount of time to pass before arrests are made or charges filed, even for small cases. Once I waited almost 18 months to go to court for some plants, another possesion charge I had dragged on for over 2 years... for less than 5 grams. The courts are many things, but speedy is not one of them.
This subject interests me enough to get involved. On the other hand, I could care less if Erik really bangs girls or sucks dick.