How do you figure???? This isnt an abortion. It was premeditated and she purposly caused the death of another human. This is the very definition of 1st degree murder.
I disagree that it's premeditated. This was a crime of a panicked 14 year old girl. Premeditation requires sufficient forethought, which I do not believe this had. There was no murderous malice here. She wasn't committing this crime with any motivation other than panic, and that fits the definition of manslaughter much more than it does first degree murder.
This has all the pieces of a child thinking only in the short term. Hiding her pregnancy from her parents so she could live the 9 months as opposed to abortion or other options.
If this happens to a 20 year old woman, I'm more inclined to believe malicious intent. I just don't think that there's any way this isn't determined she had no intent to kill before the birth and it's bumped down to first degree manslaughter .
this is another case of Americans not being able to determine an age for an adult.. if you can send a 14 year old girl to jail for the rest of her life then I guess that qualifies her as an adult and she can make adult decisions.. then it should be legal for her to have sex, drink, sign legal shit etc.. you cant have it both ways she is either a kid or and adult
How do you figure???? This isnt an abortion. It was premeditated and she purposly caused the death of another human. This is the very definition of 1st degree murder.
I disagree that it's premeditated. This was a crime of a panicked 14 year old girl. Premeditation requires sufficient forethought, which I do not believe this had. There was no murderous malice here. She wasn't committing this crime with any motivation other than panic, and that fits the definition of manslaughter much more than it does first degree murder.
This has all the pieces of a child thinking only in the short term. Hiding her pregnancy from her parents so she could live the 9 months as opposed to abortion or other options.
If this happens to a 20 year old woman, I'm more inclined to believe malicious intent. I just don't think that there's any way this isn't determined she had no intent to kill before the birth and it's bumped down to first degree manslaughter .
I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I feel "no premeditation" requires everything hitting you like a ton of bricks. Like you are in love, think you have the perfect wife and perfect life. You are excited because you just got back from the shooting range early to take your wife out to dinner and walk in to her fucking some other dude... You arent thinking clearly and your so hurt and mad and you open fire. When that dude walked into that house he had no idea his wife would be fucking some dude.
This girl on the other hand had 9 whole months to think about this and what she was going to do. 9 fucking months! This wasnt a shock to her when she went into labor. You really think she was so stupid that she thought the baby would just stay in there forever? no. She knew that day would come and she had thought through what she was going to do when it happened. To compare this to my story above, it's like the dude has 9 months for warning that he is going to walk in on his wife fucking some dude in 9 months. You think he's just going to not think about it? No... He will know exactly what he is going to do. Same situation here.
I am fine if someone wants to argue that as a 14 year old, she didnt have the mental capacity to understand what she was doing. I'd disagree, but at least I would understand why you would have that opinion. I'd just have a hard time accepting that a 14 year old wouldnt know it was wrong to strangle a baby to death.
How do you figure???? This isnt an abortion. It was premeditated and she purposly caused the death of another human. This is the very definition of 1st degree murder.
I disagree that it's premeditated. This was a crime of a panicked 14 year old girl. Premeditation requires sufficient forethought, which I do not believe this had. There was no murderous malice here. She wasn't committing this crime with any motivation other than panic, and that fits the definition of manslaughter much more than it does first degree murder.
This has all the pieces of a child thinking only in the short term. Hiding her pregnancy from her parents so she could live the 9 months as opposed to abortion or other options.
If this happens to a 20 year old woman, I'm more inclined to believe malicious intent. I just don't think that there's any way this isn't determined she had no intent to kill before the birth and it's bumped down to first degree manslaughter .
I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I feel "no premeditation" requires everything hitting you like a ton of bricks. Like you are in love, think you have the perfect wife and perfect life. You are excited because you just got back from the shooting range early to take your wife out to dinner and walk in to her fucking some other dude... You arent thinking clearly and your so hurt and mad and you open fire. When that dude walked into that house he had no idea his wife would be fucking some dude.
This girl on the other hand had 9 whole months to think about this and what she was going to do. 9 fucking months! This wasnt a shock to her when she went into labor. You really think she was so stupid that she thought the baby would just stay in there forever? no. She knew that day would come and she had thought through what she was going to do when it happened. To compare this to my story above, it's like the dude has 9 months for warning that he is going to walk in on his wife fucking some dude in 9 months. You think he's just going to not think about it? No... He will know exactly what he is going to do. Same situation here.
I am fine if someone wants to argue that as a 14 year old, she didnt have the mental capacity to understand what she was doing. I'd disagree, but at least I would understand why you would have that opinion. I'd just have a hard time accepting that a 14 year old wouldnt know it was wrong to strangle a baby to death.
The scenario that you describe initially is similar to what I think this is. I think the moment where everything hit her like a ton of bricks was when the baby was actually born. Do I think it's smart? No. Is it rational? Of course not.
I think it's much more likely that she lacked the long term decision making capability and just tried to get by for another week each week for 9 months.
The scenario that you describe initially is similar to what I think this is. I think the moment where everything hit her like a ton of bricks was when the baby was actually born. Do I think it's smart? No. Is it rational? Of course not.
I think it's much more likely that she lacked the long term decision making capability and just tried to get by for another week each week for 9 months.
You know what I think the difference is between your thinking and mine... I think I am basing my opinion on what I know happens to women when they are pregnant since my wife has been prego three times. When a girl is prego, it isnt out of sight out of mind like you are describing. They think about it 24/7. No... This girl had 9 months of planning on what she was going to do after the child was born. She planed to murder this child many months before it was born.
You are free to agree to disagree... My position isnt going to change on this one.
wake let me give you a scenario that could maybe give you a different POV
say your gonna be a soldier..against your will you were drafted not like a person who is meant to be a soldier type.. you get deployed in 9 months.. you have 9 months of training to prepare yourself for combat.. as much as you thought about it you never really know how your gonna act until the moment your in the middle of a field with bullets and shrapnel flying around your head and your best friend just got shot in the face..you could stand strong in that situation or you could cower in fear, regardless of the preparation time.. you see what im saying?
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
I honestly get what you are saying Nola but I also know how women are with babies growing inside them. Have you ever known anyone who was going to give up a child for adoption? It is often times the case that a girl decides to give up a child for adoption, and then the moment they are born it hits them like a ton of bricks and they can't give the child up like that. That is a normal and common reaction to child birth. With your analogy you are saying this girl had the opposite feelings about the birth. That she was planning on keeping it and hiding it or something, but the moment it was born it hit her like a ton of bricks and she decided to murder it right there on the spot. No. That doesnt follow human nature, nor is that how girls work. Have a child with a girl, and then you try and keep the same opinion. It just doesnt work like that. For a girl to murder a child like that, she must have premeditated it, and worked her self up to doing it, crushing out her naturally genetic desire to care for that baby she birthed.
Yes there are questions that should be asked. Why was her home situation so bad that she couldnt let her parents find out about this? Or ask for help? Why would she think murdering a defenseless baby is better than the alternative of what her parents would have done to her?
But regardless of those questions- I dont see how anyone who has any sort of experience with girls and babies would argue that this case is anything but premeditated 1st degree murder. Notice how anyone with kids doesnt share your or Wine's opinion? That's because they know what girls are like during and after childbirth.
what your wife was feeling during pregnancy is irrelevant..you werent in this 14 year old childs Head.. you have no idea what she was thinking.. huge difference from an insanely scared 14 year old and grown ass woman who had prepared for a child before they even got pregnant..your not thinking very rationally my friend
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
I'm not talking about how my wife was feeling but the genetic traits of the gender. It's like this- If you take a 18 year old heterosexual male put him in a room, and then Scarlett Johnsson walks in naked... That dude is going to pop a boner, do you disagree? Wait maybe he will decide not to have a boner??? No, it doesnt work that way. His genetics are going to instantly tell his dick to get ready for fun. And that is what I am saying here. Women genetically are driven to care for a child. For a girl to give birth to a baby, and then walk away from it, is against the genders genetic makeup. Even if she wanted to kill the child while it was in her womb, the second it is born she is going to have a lot of natural instincts to care and protect this child. The fact that she did overcome these natural urges says to me that she must have spent a good deal of time planning this. So much time in fact that she was able to talk her way through doing something that was naturally against what her body was telling her she needed to do.
your realize that your brain controls your whole body right? and when brought upon a feeling like extreme fear your brain doesnt function in a normal way.. technically men are predispositioned to have as many sex partners as possible to breed as much as possible..but as our brain developed we encountered more feelings and thought and then some men were then capable of having longterm monogamous relationships.. I agree MOST of the time natural instinct would make one want to careof the baby but not ALL the time.. esp in cases of a 14 year old child..if this was a 30 year old woman I might be thinking differently.. everyone is wired differently.. in your case then there would be 0 successful adoptions because everytime someone would have a baby they would then want to keep it..i really dont think thats the case which proves that different people and different situations breed different results.. not everything is black and white
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
Oh I agree there are differing levels of these natural urges.
My point with the adoption is that even when a girl decides to give up that baby, her natural instincts are telling her not too. So as you pointed out, there would be no adoptions if people were held to these genetic predispositioned urges. But what I am really saying is that every girl who does give up a child for adoption hurts inside for doing it. They don't want to, but they understand that it is best for the baby and their brain talks them though going against these natural genetic traits.
What I am saying in this case is that this girl had to have her brain talk her though doing something that her natural genetics were telling her not to do. Her brain, or perhaps her fear, helped her overcome these natural instincts that all women have. I just don't believe a girl is prego for 9 months not thinking anything about it, gives birth, instantly is overcome with fear that her parents might find out, and then murders it. No way. That doesnt make sense. What does make sense is her spending many months thinking about what she was going to do. Talking herself into believing that "murdering the baby when it is born is the only way I wont get in trouble"... and then when the child was born fighting/overcoming those natural genetic urges to care for the baby and instead murder it as she had been planning for months. My scenario makes sense. Yours doesnt. These genetic instincts that girls have are stronger then you think Nola.
I just don't believe a girl is prego for 9 months not thinking anything about it, gives birth, instantly is overcome with fear that her parents might find out, and then murders it. No way. That doesnt make sense.
that doesnt makes sense cuz thats not what im saying at all -_- did you not even read the soldier example I gave? she wasnt instantly overcome by fear...what i think (and this is just my guess, like i said im not in this 14 year old childs head.. ive never been a 14 yr old pregnant girl before) is that she was scared the entire pregnancy and was lost and didnt know who to go to (even tho she had plenty of options) because she is just 14 and is dumb and is not thinking like a rational adult.. and she had 9 months of fear and feeling alone and helpless and when finally the moment came where she couldnt hide it anymore she panicked and did something horrible..thats makes perfect sense.. you sound like dayna does..just cuz your wife or responsible adult parents think a certain way doesnt mean everyone is gonna think that way.. Humans do alot of things that go against what other animals in nature are predispostitoned to do because we are at a different level of thinking.. obviously we still feel the effects of instincts but to say that they cannot be ignored in a time of complete crisis and panic is absolutely redicolous. like i said with the soldiers.. How can some soldiers go into battle with calmness and be extremely effective while others cant handle it all and go into fear tremors and go blind? apparently everyones instincts should act exactly the same so therefore every soldier should act accordingly in the time of crisis and panic?
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
edited December 2012
good job explaining yourself. The scenario you presented seems plausible. I can agree that might be a possibility, but I'm still not going to jump to that side. My opinion is unchanged, however I agree it's probably not likely anyone would be able to prove it was premeditated. Well unless she writing about it in her journal. I wouldnt put that past her
imo even if it was premeditated, which i mean could be possible, she shouldnt be tried as an adult because she is 14.. like i said earlier in the thread you shouldnt be tried as an adult unless you are a fucking adult otherwise the whole point doesnt make any sense...
and its mos def murder whoever says otherwise is retarded
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
idk... I'm kinda conflicted about being charged as an adult. On one hand I feel she should, because I don't think at 18 she is going to know any better that what she did was heinous. On the other-hand it seems like most would agree she took this route because she was a minor. because she didnt want her parents finding out, and probably didnt have the means to get herself to an abortion place and have the fetus aborted. How's she going to get there? Whose going to pay for it? Whose going to perform the operation on a 14 year old whose parents don't know about it. I gotta believe this wouldnt have ever happened if she was 18.
I don't think im okay with charging a 14 year old with first degree murder. As horrific as this is I say you put her in a mental institution and monitor her for a very long time.
You tryin to be a hero fool? You wanna see badass mother fucker?! I'll show ya a badass!!!
Is tough as it is to give a 14 year old girl life in prison this is a crime that certainly constitutes the penalty. Even 14 year old girls know right from wrong. Why should she get a second chance at life when her baby didn't even get one chance thanks to her cowardly actions?
And nola, don't know if this has been said but the purpose of trying an underage person as an adult is to give them the most severe penalty they can.
To whoever said she should go to a mental institution, that's almost like giving her no penalty. It's very easy to fool doctors. All you have to do is tell them what they wanna hear over a long enough period of time they will claim that you're "rehabilitated"
"That's another thing I love about metal, it's so fuckin' huge yet certain people don't even know it exists." - Rob Zombie
Comments
This has all the pieces of a child thinking only in the short term. Hiding her pregnancy from her parents so she could live the 9 months as opposed to abortion or other options.
If this happens to a 20 year old woman, I'm more inclined to believe malicious intent. I just don't think that there's any way this isn't determined she had no intent to kill before the birth and it's bumped down to first degree manslaughter .
This girl on the other hand had 9 whole months to think about this and what she was going to do. 9 fucking months! This wasnt a shock to her when she went into labor. You really think she was so stupid that she thought the baby would just stay in there forever? no. She knew that day would come and she had thought through what she was going to do when it happened. To compare this to my story above, it's like the dude has 9 months for warning that he is going to walk in on his wife fucking some dude in 9 months. You think he's just going to not think about it? No... He will know exactly what he is going to do. Same situation here.
I am fine if someone wants to argue that as a 14 year old, she didnt have the mental capacity to understand what she was doing. I'd disagree, but at least I would understand why you would have that opinion. I'd just have a hard time accepting that a 14 year old wouldnt know it was wrong to strangle a baby to death.
I think it's much more likely that she lacked the long term decision making capability and just tried to get by for another week each week for 9 months.
You are free to agree to disagree... My position isnt going to change on this one.
say your gonna be a soldier..against your will you were drafted not like a person who is meant to be a soldier type.. you get deployed in 9 months.. you have 9 months of training to prepare yourself for combat.. as much as you thought about it you never really know how your gonna act until the moment your in the middle of a field with bullets and shrapnel flying around your head and your best friend just got shot in the face..you could stand strong in that situation or you could cower in fear, regardless of the preparation time.. you see what im saying?
Yes there are questions that should be asked. Why was her home situation so bad that she couldnt let her parents find out about this? Or ask for help? Why would she think murdering a defenseless baby is better than the alternative of what her parents would have done to her?
But regardless of those questions- I dont see how anyone who has any sort of experience with girls and babies would argue that this case is anything but premeditated 1st degree murder. Notice how anyone with kids doesnt share your or Wine's opinion? That's because they know what girls are like during and after childbirth.
My point with the adoption is that even when a girl decides to give up that baby, her natural instincts are telling her not too. So as you pointed out, there would be no adoptions if people were held to these genetic predispositioned urges. But what I am really saying is that every girl who does give up a child for adoption hurts inside for doing it. They don't want to, but they understand that it is best for the baby and their brain talks them though going against these natural genetic traits.
What I am saying in this case is that this girl had to have her brain talk her though doing something that her natural genetics were telling her not to do. Her brain, or perhaps her fear, helped her overcome these natural instincts that all women have. I just don't believe a girl is prego for 9 months not thinking anything about it, gives birth, instantly is overcome with fear that her parents might find out, and then murders it. No way. That doesnt make sense. What does make sense is her spending many months thinking about what she was going to do. Talking herself into believing that "murdering the baby when it is born is the only way I wont get in trouble"... and then when the child was born fighting/overcoming those natural genetic urges to care for the baby and instead murder it as she had been planning for months. My scenario makes sense. Yours doesnt. These genetic instincts that girls have are stronger then you think Nola.
that doesnt makes sense cuz thats not what im saying at all -_- did you not even read the soldier example I gave? she wasnt instantly overcome by fear...what i think (and this is just my guess, like i said im not in this 14 year old childs head.. ive never been a 14 yr old pregnant girl before) is that she was scared the entire pregnancy and was lost and didnt know who to go to (even tho she had plenty of options) because she is just 14 and is dumb and is not thinking like a rational adult.. and she had 9 months of fear and feeling alone and helpless and when finally the moment came where she couldnt hide it anymore she panicked and did something horrible..thats makes perfect sense.. you sound like dayna does..just cuz your wife or responsible adult parents think a certain way doesnt mean everyone is gonna think that way.. Humans do alot of things that go against what other animals in nature are predispostitoned to do because we are at a different level of thinking.. obviously we still feel the effects of instincts but to say that they cannot be ignored in a time of complete crisis and panic is absolutely redicolous. like i said with the soldiers.. How can some soldiers go into battle with calmness and be extremely effective while others cant handle it all and go into fear tremors and go blind? apparently everyones instincts should act exactly the same so therefore every soldier should act accordingly in the time of crisis and panic?
and its mos def murder whoever says otherwise is retarded
And nola, don't know if this has been said but the purpose of trying an underage person as an adult is to give them the most severe penalty they can.
To whoever said she should go to a mental institution, that's almost like giving her no penalty. It's very easy to fool doctors. All you have to do is tell them what they wanna hear over a long enough period of time they will claim that you're "rehabilitated"