WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
edited August 2011
Secondly... I do not deny your claims that a percentage of the south wanted to keep Slavery. I do not know percentages, but I would be agreeable to assuming it was a a majority.
My belief is that had Lincoln let the southern states leave the union (which was their legal right), several things would have happened: 1. The anti-slavery moment was already happening, and it was happening in the south. There would be some that would oppose abolishing it, but those people would either be socially cast out -OR- economically forced into it (see point 2) 2. The Cotton industry was tanking.The south thought they were driving the economy of the USA with their Cotton (and they were at the start of the USA)... but the fact of the matter was it was a dying industry. You arent going to need slavery when you have no work for them to do.
So had the south left the union, their economy would have crumbled, slavery would have been abolished, and they would have come begging to be back in the union as the Industrial revolution was booming and establishing the United States and the greatest power in the world.
Don't fool yourself Nola. Lincoln cared nothing of slavery and cared only of setting up a strong central government and removing state rights. He played on the emotions of the people to get support for his illegal war. If you think less state rights is a good thing, then fine... go ahead and admire Lincoln. I personally think he fucked our country up and it is too bad his blood wasnt spilled sooner. yeah, I said it.
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
no where in that paragraph wake did even come close to answerering my question, instead you diverted back to lincoln.....
I refuse to answer questions when the person asking the question sets up a false definition to lead into the question. Understanding what a state is, and why our Union was a collection of these independent states is important to having any discussion about state rights and the civil war.
u got a hard on for lincoln dood.....i didnt mention lincoln at all
let me ask you again....
the south broke away due to states rights you say not slavery, to govern themselves understable
but what was this northern of federal oppression being brought onto the south for them to be so mad that they would have to start their own country?? because the only issue i can think of slavery..explain the states rights point, what states rights did the south want, other than to keep slavery going, that was being prevented form them
and this time try not to go off on another lincoln tangent lol
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
In Lincolns own words the Civil war was not about slavery and was about state rights.
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." (Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862)
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
<_> wake jesus christ
u got a hard on for lincoln dood.....i didnt mention lincoln at all
let me ask you again....
the south broke away due to states rights you say not slavery, to govern themselves understable
but what was this northern of federal oppression being brought onto the south for them to be so mad that they would have to start their own country?? because the only issue i can think of slavery..explain the states rights point, what states rights did the south want, other than to keep slavery going, that was being prevented form them
and this time try not to go off on another lincoln tangent lol
sorry... yeah, I hate Lincoln.
Okay, I get what you are saying... Yes. The south wanted to leave the union due to Slavery. Which should have been their right as a independent state.
Lincoln cared nothing for why the south wanted to leave the union... he just wanted teh states to remain together. So when we are talking about the civil war, you can't say it was because of slavery, because the south wasnt going to invade the north to keep slavery... But lincoln invaded the south to keep them from leaving the union.
1. the south was going to form there own country because they wanted to keep slavery, the only states right issue that was being oppressed on them. 2. lincoln did not want that to happen and was going to do everything he could to prevent that 3. lincoln didnt really care about the slaves, just wanted to preserve the union
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
so we can agree on this:
1. the south was going to form there own country because they wanted to keep slavery, the only states right issue that was being oppressed on them. 2. lincoln did not want that to happen and was going to do everything he could to prevent that 3. lincoln didnt really care about the slaves, just wanted to preserve the union
that being the case i really dont see how it is a states rights issue becuae of these conflicting ideas
1. the north did not want the south to succedd 2. the south is only succedding because of slavery 3. so if the north didnt care about ending slavery they would just let slavery continue in the south in order to keep them in the unioun. 4. since this obv didnt take place one must conclude that slavery was the main issue of the civil war
WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
I believe that the cause of the war is determined by the person starting the war, and not the entity being invaded. that said:
1. I don't agree with your point #1. It was not the north that did not want the south to succeed, but Lincoln that did not want the south to succeed. It was Lincoln who started this war, by using slavery as the emotional step to gain support of the people to support his agenda. (removing state rights). Since it was Lincoln starting the war, what was his reasoning for doing that? State rights. see my quote. 2. This is true. 3. Because the north wanted slavery abolished because it is morally repugnant. Because as a Union they wanted their Union to not allow crimes against humanity in the form of slavery. Fine- let the south leave the union and stop being associated with the North. I believe this could have completely happened without a war. 4. I don't have to conclude that because I didnt agree with your points 1 and 3
My 2 cents on the civil war: It WAS about slavery, but not in the way of equality; Southern states weren't about to give up FREE labor on cash crops and other emerging industry....
the problem is...the north had no right to force the south to stay in the union. that's the bottom line.
do you really think the world would be a better place if the south won?
RIGHTS? surely you jest.....No country has any rights to do anything, other than whatever 'rights' it bestows itself at any time....USA had no right to invade or bomb a third of the Middle East, but we did....
Comments
My belief is that had Lincoln let the southern states leave the union (which was their legal right), several things would have happened:
1. The anti-slavery moment was already happening, and it was happening in the south. There would be some that would oppose abolishing it, but those people would either be socially cast out -OR- economically forced into it (see point 2)
2. The Cotton industry was tanking.The south thought they were driving the economy of the USA with their Cotton (and they were at the start of the USA)... but the fact of the matter was it was a dying industry. You arent going to need slavery when you have no work for them to do.
So had the south left the union, their economy would have crumbled, slavery would have been abolished, and they would have come begging to be back in the union as the Industrial revolution was booming and establishing the United States and the greatest power in the world.
Don't fool yourself Nola. Lincoln cared nothing of slavery and cared only of setting up a strong central government and removing state rights. He played on the emotions of the people to get support for his illegal war. If you think less state rights is a good thing, then fine... go ahead and admire Lincoln. I personally think he fucked our country up and it is too bad his blood wasnt spilled sooner. yeah, I said it.
u got a hard on for lincoln dood.....i didnt mention lincoln at all
let me ask you again....
the south broke away due to states rights you say not slavery, to govern themselves understable
but what was this northern of federal oppression being brought onto the south for them to be so mad that they would have to start their own country?? because the only issue i can think of slavery..explain the states rights point, what states rights did the south want, other than to keep slavery going, that was being prevented form them
and this time try not to go off on another lincoln tangent lol
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." (Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862)
Okay, I get what you are saying... Yes. The south wanted to leave the union due to Slavery. Which should have been their right as a independent state.
Lincoln cared nothing for why the south wanted to leave the union... he just wanted teh states to remain together. So when we are talking about the civil war, you can't say it was because of slavery, because the south wasnt going to invade the north to keep slavery... But lincoln invaded the south to keep them from leaving the union.
1. the south was going to form there own country because they wanted to keep slavery, the only states right issue that was being oppressed on them.
2. lincoln did not want that to happen and was going to do everything he could to prevent that
3. lincoln didnt really care about the slaves, just wanted to preserve the union
1. the north did not want the south to succedd
2. the south is only succedding because of slavery
3. so if the north didnt care about ending slavery they would just let slavery continue in the south in order to keep them in the unioun.
4. since this obv didnt take place one must conclude that slavery was the main issue of the civil war
1. I don't agree with your point #1. It was not the north that did not want the south to succeed, but Lincoln that did not want the south to succeed. It was Lincoln who started this war, by using slavery as the emotional step to gain support of the people to support his agenda. (removing state rights). Since it was Lincoln starting the war, what was his reasoning for doing that? State rights. see my quote.
2. This is true.
3. Because the north wanted slavery abolished because it is morally repugnant. Because as a Union they wanted their Union to not allow crimes against humanity in the form of slavery. Fine- let the south leave the union and stop being associated with the North. I believe this could have completely happened without a war.
4. I don't have to conclude that because I didnt agree with your points 1 and 3
RIGHTS? surely you jest.....No country has any rights to do anything, other than whatever 'rights' it bestows itself at any time....USA had no right to invade or bomb a third of the Middle East, but we did....