WakeOfAshesPosts: 21,665destroyer of motherfuckers
To bring this all together, and judging by what you said (specifically looking at the bold text in your second paragraph), you lead me to believe you think propaganda is what's to blame for injustice (since we've established altruism is the disguise/the propaganda). In response I'd argue propaganda is second to blame behind the act itself - the act itself being a product of egoism.
I sometimes get the impression that we could find some very solid middle ground. I haven't fully figured out our philosophical differences on government, however I do think that we are close to being into agreement the current state of affairs.
I realize that I have been discussing mostly the US government, and that was done simply because I am most familiar with that government and thought it would be an acceptable base to have this philosophical discussion that relates to governments. When I said I wanted to talk about generalities with healthcare reform, I only meant I wanted to use the idea to illustrate a bigger point I was trying to make which I just learned was not needed because we are in agreement. Allow me to explain.
Your claim a few posts back was that egoism was to blame for crimes against humanity by governments. I really wanted to show that it wasn't egoism but moral altruism that should take the blame. This is where we agree 100% - "The United States is an example of an egoistic society hiding behind the disguise of altruism". Yes! I agree 100%! Although I have not studied all world governments, it does seem forthcoming to me that all governments hide behind moral altruism. Even societies like North Korea seem to do that, when it is so obviously a lie. Where we disagree is that you blame the egoism as the root of the evil, but I believe that the real evil is the disguise... Moral Altruism. I assert that without the moral altruism, in a political system where the government must answer to the people, the government would not have the opportunity to act in his own self interests. They might try, but without the pretense of doing it for others, they would be quickly cast out of office.
What is more evil concerning a scam artist? His scam, or his desire to steal your money? I say his scam, because without his scam it is likely he wont be able to part you with your money. I do understand why you want to look past the scam and recognize his egoism as being the root of the evil, but that is just given. Everyone acts in their own self-interests, so how can you say he is any more evil then the man in your mirror? It is his ruse of moral altruism that is allowing him to commit his crime. I know his motivation, I know yours, and frankly I don't fault anyone for that. Your motivation should be your own self-interest. I've accepted that, more people should.
I agree with you that all governments at their root are most likely a product of egoism. If we were having a discussion about how governments should be ran, I would state that objectivism is the ideal choice. Objectivism does NOT hide behind the ruse of moral altruism. In fact it rejects that philosophy completely because it realizes that true moral altruism is most likely not possible. Objectivism does borrow from egoism, however it adds the interesting Corollary to the philosophy. Politically speaking Objectivism is acting in your own self-interest in an arrangement that is agreeable to all parties involved. and I assert that this model of government is not to blame for any governmental crimes against society. I do not believe this from of government has ever truly existed either, but I believe it possible.
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But I wouldn't know about any of that stuff anyway. Seems....interesting. <_>
:-)) :-))
I realize that I have been discussing mostly the US government, and that was done simply because I am most familiar with that government and thought it would be an acceptable base to have this philosophical discussion that relates to governments. When I said I wanted to talk about generalities with healthcare reform, I only meant I wanted to use the idea to illustrate a bigger point I was trying to make which I just learned was not needed because we are in agreement. Allow me to explain.
Your claim a few posts back was that egoism was to blame for crimes against humanity by governments. I really wanted to show that it wasn't egoism but moral altruism that should take the blame. This is where we agree 100% - "The United States is an example of an egoistic society hiding behind the disguise of altruism". Yes! I agree 100%! Although I have not studied all world governments, it does seem forthcoming to me that all governments hide behind moral altruism. Even societies like North Korea seem to do that, when it is so obviously a lie. Where we disagree is that you blame the egoism as the root of the evil, but I believe that the real evil is the disguise... Moral Altruism. I assert that without the moral altruism, in a political system where the government must answer to the people, the government would not have the opportunity to act in his own self interests. They might try, but without the pretense of doing it for others, they would be quickly cast out of office.
What is more evil concerning a scam artist? His scam, or his desire to steal your money? I say his scam, because without his scam it is likely he wont be able to part you with your money. I do understand why you want to look past the scam and recognize his egoism as being the root of the evil, but that is just given. Everyone acts in their own self-interests, so how can you say he is any more evil then the man in your mirror? It is his ruse of moral altruism that is allowing him to commit his crime. I know his motivation, I know yours, and frankly I don't fault anyone for that. Your motivation should be your own self-interest. I've accepted that, more people should.
I agree with you that all governments at their root are most likely a product of egoism. If we were having a discussion about how governments should be ran, I would state that objectivism is the ideal choice. Objectivism does NOT hide behind the ruse of moral altruism. In fact it rejects that philosophy completely because it realizes that true moral altruism is most likely not possible. Objectivism does borrow from egoism, however it adds the interesting Corollary to the philosophy. Politically speaking Objectivism is acting in your own self-interest in an arrangement that is agreeable to all parties involved. and I assert that this model of government is not to blame for any governmental crimes against society. I do not believe this from of government has ever truly existed either, but I believe it possible.
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blue turbins
From Those Fishes - I Fingered An Old Bitch (i got Aids on my finger)
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blue turbins
From Those Fishes - I Fingered An Old Bitch (i got Aids on my finger)